My above post overlapped with Hawk's which more or less said the same thing.
My above post overlapped with Hawk's which more or less said the same thing.
It is almost impossible to ascertain when exactly Mosley was at his best all round; because against one man is different than against another, rightly noted Paulie. That's why I said from the beginning that Mosley's peak night as a fighter in the 147 division was IMO the Oscar show. I also stressed that this was NOT fact, just opinion. It's not possible to claim it as fact. Was he declining in 2001 and 2002 as a 147 lb man?. I think he was!
Fair enough, although I think it's interesting that you posit a decline for Shane over the space of 18 months but in another thread you completely reject the notion that Naseem Hamed could have declined over a much longer period!!
How is that strange. Two different men, different scenarios etc etc.Originally Posted by Paulie W
And by decline, I don't mean rapid; or shell of his former self, just a decline from the best he was!
Strange because prior to Forrest there's absolutely no evidence in Shane's fights to suggest he was in decline (unless you can point to anything?) whereas with Hamed there are pretty clear signs (to me at least) that he was on the slide before the Barrera fight which I can happily point to.
Always says things I either want to say, or in this case, have already said, in a much nicer way, huh?
Paulie: "Strange because prior to Forrest there's absolutely no evidence in Shane's fights to suggest he was in decline (unless you can point to anything?)..."
Me: "Were those wars agianst Diaz, Taylor and Stone what wore him down?"
It must be a special gift.
That, or I'm simply a dick.
I don't get it fellas. I never said he was past it or a shell or heavily in decline. I just said that he wasn't as good (POST Oscar 2000). I will try to explain using simple math. Strictly referring to the Forrest bout here:
Shane in 2000 V Oscar was IMO operating at his absolute 147lb best; 100 percent Mosley
For the Forrest bout, Shane IMO was operating at <100 percent.
The exact decline, I'm afraid, is unknown. I have yet to
find an equation to calculate this
I also happen to believe that Shane was in decline for bouts following his
win over Oscar; again, I cannot determine the exact percentage.
By 'following,' Hawk, I mean proceeding or immediately after the Oscar bout or directly after the
Oscar bout, as in fights V Diaz, Taylor and Stone. Just so you don't get all confused and stumped again!
He was still very very good, just not what he was V Oscar. I noticed it anyway!
Now, take from the list any definition you like and do with it whatever you like; but
to me and to the issue concerning Shane's decline, I define it as Shane not
being as good at 147lbs POST Oscar!
Last edited by walshb; 09-20-2008 at 05:40 PM.
I think Trinidad was too big of a welter for Mosely.
Too big?Originally Posted by Elwill7847
They both will be 147 lbs. Yes, Tito is naturally the bigger man; but both gotta'
weigh in (at or below) 147 lbs
Was Tito too big for Oscar?
Shane is every bit the fighter Oscar was. Yes, he does not fight like Oscar; but he had the toughness and chin and speed. These are the key ingredients needed to beat a slower and more predictable Tito. I see Tito having a one punch power advantage and that is it.
That will not be enough to beat Mosley.
Trinidad was a big welter, 5'11" I believe, while Mosely started as a Lightweight. Much as Shane couldnt handle Vernon Forrest, another tall welter, I think Trinidad was just too big and strong and punched too hard for him.
I'll make this simple.
I consider Mosley to have been at his 147 peak for the Oscar AND Forrest fights.
That being said, Mosley TKOs Tito late.
It's not a case of "Forrest nailed Mosley and hurt him ,so Tito finishes him"
Tito is not Forrest, who I think was very under-rated due to his upset loss to Mayorga (he got robbed straight in the rematch) Trinidad was a mid-range hooker . . .Mosley had trouble with Forrest's reach, handspeed, and straight punching from a distance.
Forrest at his best beats Trinidad as well.
Can't see Forrest having the poise or general mental toughness needed to cope with Tito.
he's a poor mover as well, which wouldn't bode well for any backfoot orientated gameplan unless he could really hurt Tito early.
Yes, I agree that Tito was the naturally bigger man, but still this doesn't get him the win.Originally Posted by Elwill7847
Forrest was big, awkward and a very good boxer with more variety than Tito.
I certainly see Mosely as being a tough fight for Trinidad but I belive Tito would get to Shane late in the fight.
Trinidad was certainly a limited fighter, but what he did he did very well, which was punching with both hands and maintaining his punching power late in the fight.
I think Mosley has the power to put Tito down, but not out. Besides, Mosley is not the mover Oscar is. Shane likes to go toe to toe and this would spell big trouble against Tito. Shane doesn't have it in him to stay away and box his way to victory.
Tito from the Campas fight used to box a little more and jab quite some. This version of Trinidad I really liked, because he didn't depend so much on his punching power as he did later on in his career. This version might have been more a threat to Mosley, because he didn't have the pressure of being a superstar and didn't have so much on stake. Now, he didn't have the experience either, but in a fight where no man backs down Tito always has the advantage.
Now, Forrest is another story. Tall as Tito is and with very good punching power as well I think he had a better chance of beating Tito than Shane. Regardless of the outcome it would've been a heck of a fight.
Forrest has no chance. No chance. I really dislike Vernon Forrest BTW. I remember the pressure Mayorga put on Vernon. The pressure put on him by Mayorga is nothing like Trindad baby! Trinidad not going to throw useless wild punches. Trinidad will be coming forward and looking to make Forrest engage.
Forrest engaging = Forrest going home early.
In case anyone is thinking that Forrest can Hopkins his way past Trinidad, I say no. Forrest is never going to be that disciplined. Hopkins is tough mentally, that is what saved him from trading even when he had the advantage late. Forrest will think and look for the perfect punch to throw. By the time Forrest figures out when to punch, he will have Trinidad in his face firing.
No, Forrest does not make it out of round six.
I also have a dislike of Vernon Forrest. He really pisses me off with his excessive holding. He used this effectively against Mosely in both fights. Forrest is no stranger to headbutts, excessive holding, and other rough house tactics. Remember the first Forrest vs. Mora fight? Forrest is a real talented fighter who can box and punch, but I have no love loss for him and I enjoyed the fact that he got kayoed by Mayorga. I glad to see other people share some of my views.Originally Posted by JLP 6
But it is funny, I have heard more and more fans stating that they felt Forrest won the Mayorga Rematch. Tko, you were obviously NOT alone on this one!
As much as I didn't care for Forrest's style of fighting, I also couldn't stand Mayorga's style OR personality. Probably disliked HIM more than Vernon. But I just saw that fight as a 2 or 3 point win for Mayorga.
As for Forrest Tito.....I see Felix by Ko mid rounds. I also see Felix putting Vernon in an uncomfortable retreat mode that takes his effectiveness away.
Just envision Forrest's eye's a big a saucers when retreating from some hellacious body shots.
Originally Posted by sr71ko
Whenever you feel the need to bash Forrest, go right ahead, it is fine by me. A couple things that I love;
I loved that Forrest was visibly scared to engage Mayorga in the second fight (Hawk this takes me back, by I had Mayorga winning the round that he let Forrest hit him, that was the only way that Forrest would stop running and throw one like he mean't it.)
I love Mayorga. His eating pizza on the scales, smoking during interviews, his little casual stroll in the ring as the first bell rings. And most important, the man has heart, and backs up his talk most of the time. I hate how Mosley is going to take advantage of him. I was just starting to like Mosley. I hope that Mayorga lands a lucky one, and laughs over Shane.
It should be noted that for the most part I like villians IF they can really rumble. Guys like De La Hoya and Mosley sicken me with all that extra smiling.
I've seen Mosley hurt badly three times at 147 and up: vs. Forrest and both times against Wright. For such a fluid athlete, Shane does have a bit too much Meldrick Taylor in him also and that doesn't bode well against a banger like Tito.
I think I see a W12 for Trinidad in a sizzling battle, like a closer version of Trinidad-Whitaker with Mosley getting dropped a couple of times after possibly having handed Felix a seat early.
Very good points Husker. Mosely had bigger pop in his fists compared to Meldrick Taylor. This is one fight that I really don't know who would win. It is plausible, that Mosely could easily out box/stop Tito late, or Tito catching Mosely early ala Vernon Forrest, or catching Mosely late like Fernado Vargas, or even a closer version of Trinidad-Whitaker. If I remember right, Trinidad broke Whitaker's jaw. I just don't know who would win. That is in my opinion, what makes this fight so compelling. Either of the senarios that many have listed could happen.Originally Posted by Husker
I think Tito was just too damn big and strong for Shane, whose best weight was at 135. I don't necessarily think he would KO Shane, who has never been KO'd, and has enough speed, skill, defense, and condition to last, but I think Tito would simply overpower Shane and cause him to be overly grabbing, defensive, and conservative offensively and therefore lose a decision.
Didn't Shane get KO'ed by Forrest? I admit that I don't really know nor care, but I do want to be clear on that.
Forrest dropped Shane, fight one, 2nd round if memory serves but he most assuredly didn't KO him.
sr71ko: agree with pretty much everything you wrote, especially the Taylor-Mosley comparison. I probably should've expanded on the point I was trying to make but sometimes I forget that you mere mortals don't make consistent use of your e.s.p...ha,ha. Mosely tends to brawl when tagged and just before that he has a tendency to freeze, almost like he's thinking to himself "what do I do now?". Like Taylor.
I can envision almost every scenario you put up except an easy boxing lesson for Shane. I'm as guilty as most when "suddenly" discovering that Tito couldn't box when he was shutout by Hopkins and Wright but factored in with the rest of his career, it's not like he was inept. Conversely, I also think Shane's technical abilities have been overblown. Damned fast, pretty combos and he just always looked very natural to me but neither of these guys ever made me think of "great" boxing ability. Flashes of damned good stuff, enough so to make both as good as they were but I don't think either's performances in any area made this a cakewalk for one or the other.
Bottom line, I think we're pretty much on the same page.
Last edited by Husker; 10-06-2008 at 11:28 PM.
I wish some one would drop Vernon Forrest. When comparing Mayorga in his fights with Trinidad and Mosely, I give an edge to Trinidad. Trinidad badly battered Mayorga completely, despite Trinidad suffering a flash knockdown. Mosely vs. Mayorga, some on this site, actually a sizeable amount feel that Mayorga was winning. I had the fight closer than the HBO talking heads did, but I still had Mosely ahead by a point or maybe 2 points(a lot of the rounds were kind of hard to score, so no complaints about the scoring), but the last minute kayo reminded me of marciano-walcott I, except Mosely lands a devastating left hook instead of the Rock's right cross. Mosely could not afford to get hit by Trinidad like he did against Mayorga or Forrest, yet could Trinidad take Mosely's left hook? The punch kayoed Vargas and Mayorga, and even Oscar was badly shaken by a Mosely left hook in the 1st round of the second fight, as well as some of that body work in rounds 10-12. I guess which fighter lands their bombs first is most likely the winner.
LOL. Gotta love these kinda match-ups doncha, sr71ko ? Analyze and compare and then just throw your hands up and so, oh the hell with it. Whoever lands first...Originally Posted by sr71ko
I'm with ya.