The BAWLI Papers
(Boxing As We Liked It)
Edited by J Michael Kenyon

Issue Number 61
Monday, February 22, 1999
New York City, New York, US of A
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IN THIS ISSUE: DAVE IAMELE INTERVIEWS EX CHAMPION, HALL OF FAMER CARMEN
BASILIO
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(ED. NOTE -- We've temporarily misplaced the source of this interview,
although it's probably somewhere in the voluminous web site of The Cyber
Boxing Zone, which may be located at: http://www.cyberboxingzone.com)

CARMEN BASILIO INTERVIEWED

By Dave Iamele

Forty years ago in da Bronx at the house that Ruth built a young onion farmer
from Canastota, NY shocked the boxing world. Carmen "the Canastota Clouter"
Basilio won a razor thin split decision over one Walker Smith, better known as
Sugar Ray Robinson after 15 gruelling rounds. That night (September 23, 1957)
saw world welterweight champion Basilio take on Sugar Ray for his middleweight
title. Carmen entered Yankee Stadium that night a 4 to 1 underdog but he left
as the new middleweight champion of the world.

Fast forward 40 years and Carmen is back in his old hometown being honored on
the anniversary of arguably his greatest victory by his friends and family at
the International Boxing Hall of Fame. Basilio's achievements led him to be
inducted in 1990 as one of the first group of fighters enshrined. In his
79-fight career spanning from 1948 to 1961 he won 56 (27 by KO), lost 16, and
had 7 draws. He was a two time welterweight champion and also, as mentioned
above, won the middleweight belt from Robinson. In Ring Magazine's 1997 Boxing
Almanac Carmen is listed as #40 of the top 50 fighters from the last 50 years.
He was also involved in 6 of the 100 greatest title fights of all
time,(24,27,29,46,69,92). The Robinson bout was #24 followed by DeMarco II,
Fullmer, Gavilan, DeMarco I, & Saxton II respectively. Basilio was also
fighter of the year from 1955 thru 1959, the longest stretch ever
consecutively held by any boxer. I was lucky enough to get a few words with
Canastota's greatest champion as he signed autographs for the hundreds of fans
who came to meet, greet, and pay tribute to this gritty pugilist of the '50s.
Carmen is a marvellous guy who underwent quadruple bypass heart surgery in
June shortly after attending the annual Hall of Fame induction ceremonies.

DI: "When did you get out of the Marine Corps?"

CB: "November 22, 1947."

DI: "How did you happen to chose boxing as a profession?"

CB: "Well ever since I was a little boy, I always wanted to be a fighter. My
father was a fight nut. The only time he ever let us stay up after 8:30 at
night was on Friday nights to listen to the fights with him at 10:00. He
bought us boxing gloves and we were always boxing. Not only that, but I boxed
on the high school boxing team. That's the only reason I went to high school,
because they had that boxing team. Without that, I wouldn't have gone to
school. That's all I ever wanted to be was a fighter. Then I went in the
Marine Corp. and I boxed in the corp., got out boxed (as an) amateur for about
a year, then turned pro."

DI: "You turned pro in November of 1948 at the age of 21 and KOd Jimmy Evans
in your first bout. Can you remember anything about that night? How you felt?
Were you nervous because this was your first pro bout?"

CB: "I felt great that I won, I was in good shape, and I was confident that I
could beat him. I'd seen him fight before as a pro, he'd been around a long
time, he was an old timer but he wasn't aggressive enough. I don't know
whether he's still living or not, he was quite a bit older than me. I was 21
and he was about 33 or 34 years old. The fight was in Binghamton, NY. I was
nervous before every fight. I don't care when it was. If you're not nervous,
you're in trouble. If you're nervous, then you're sharp and alert."

DI: "On March 6, 1950, you beat former lightweight champ Lew Jenkins in your
first 10 rounder. Do you feel this was your first bout against a 'name'
opponent, being as he was a former champ?"

CB: "Well, I had been fighting quite often at that time and I was in great
shape -- there was no problem going 10 rounds. But I really thought I looked
busy that night, I won the decision, but I wasn't at my best."

DI: "In January of 1953, you decisioned Ike Williams and you've stated that he
was the hardest puncher you ever fought. Do you still feel this way?"

CB: "Well, no, Robinson was a harder puncher than him. But he was, at that
time, the hardest puncher I had faced. He was a great puncher. I got in close
with him and he hit me two shots in my forearms that picked me off my feet, I
said to myself, 'he's not going to hit me again tonight'. He didn't, I took 10
out of 10 rounds from him. He just died last year. He was a great fighter, he
was lightweight champion for about seven years, he fought a lot of great
fighters. He even went 15 rounds with Sugar Ray Robinson."

DI: "After a couple of bouts with Billy Graham, winning the NYS title along
the way, you fought Kid Gavilan in Syracuse. You were the first boxer to ever
put him on the canvas when you knocked him down for a nine count in the second

round. The fight went 15 rounds and you lost a very close split decision.
Being that the bout was held in Syracuse, why didn't you get a hometown
decision?"

CB: "Well, I'll tell you -- they imported the officials, they imported the
judges and the referee from New York City. They were there to protect him and
they over protected him. That's what happened. Which is all right, in the long
run, because I had to wait two more years but I had some good fights during
that time and then I won the title. They bypassed me (Gavilan) and went down
to Philly and fought Johnny Saxton. Saxton upset him and beat him. Now Saxtons
group didn't want any part of me so they bypassed me and fought Tony DeMarco.
DeMarco upset the apple cart by KOing Saxton in the 14th round. But the boxing
commission said that the only way they'd approve that match (DeMarco/Saxton)
was that the winner had to fight me within 90 days. Tony had to fight me, and
I knocked him out in 12 rounds."

DI: "They called that fight, 'a wild, bloody brawl'. What are your thoughts on
that?"

CB: "No. I didn't bleed. He did the bleeding. (laughs) No, it was a rough,
tough fight. He was a good puncher and he was dangerous and we fought the full
12 rounds. Well, actually after about the ninth or tenth round, he started to
slow down, and I started nailing him with good shots."

DI: "When you lost the title to Johnny Saxton on March 14, 1955 in Chicago
most ringsiders felt you won the bout easily but Saxton was awarded the
victory. Was this some mob funny business conducted by Saxton's 'manager'
Blinky Palermo?"

CB: " Well -- I don't know what that was but the thing was, that I had hit him
on the chin and staggered him in the 3rd round, and when he came out in the
fourth round, the stuffing was coming out of his glove. They had taken a razor
and slit his glove and they stopped the fight for 20 minutes to get a new
glove on him, and then he ran for his life the rest of the fight."

DI: "I think Angelo Dundee picked up on that trick. (laughs)

CB: "Angelo was in my corner."

DI: "He must've learned something that night."

CB: "I think he learned a lot working with me. (laughs) I remind him about it
too because I was the first champion he ever worked with. He worked with me a
lot of fights and he was a good cornerman but he never trained me. My manager
was John DeJohn, and I trained myself. I'd had so many fights before that I
didn't need a trainer, so there was no problem there, I knew how to train."

DI: "During your heyday, there was a lot of mob corruption in the fight game.
Did anyone ever approach you to take a dive or otherwise throw a bout?"

CB: "No."

DI: "You were never approached?"

CB: "No, because I put the word out that if anyone was to approach me, I'd
punch 'em in the mouth and have 'em arrested. So they never came near me."

DI: "You fought Saxton three times. If you knew he was a 'connected' guy with
the wise guys why not avoid him?"

CB: "Because he had the title and he had us right by the balls so the only way
I'm gonna get the belt is by beating the guy."

DI: "Then in '57, you moved up to middleweight to fight Robinson. How did this
fight come about?"

CB: "He didn't have a legitimate opponent in the middleweight division at the
time, and I had just fought my last fight with Saxton, and I was having
trouble making 147 lbs. They were looking for an opponent, we got the
opportunity and we thought it was a great idea. We drew a big, big crowd and
it was a good pay day. So we went to Jim Morris and MSG and we set up the
fight."

DI: "It's been said that you had an intense dislike for Ray, why?"

CB: "That's right."

DI: "Why?"

CB: "Because he didn't like me." (laughs)

DI: "Well, that's a good reason, I guess."

CB: "That's one thing. But in 1953, I was walking in front of the hotel right
across from the Times Square building (NYC). I think it was the Statelier, but
anyway, he pulled up with his entourage with his big Cadillac, right in front
of the hotel, he got out and I was walking past so I decided to go over and
introduce myself. I said, "Hi Ray, I just fought Billy Graham the week before,
the #1 welterweight. I'm Carmen Basilio.' He gave me the brush off, and I felt
about an inch high, and I said one of these days I'm gonna fight this guy and
I'm gonna kick his ass. (laughs) It took me four years but I got 'im."

DI: "I want to read you a quote from the '97 Ring Almanac and get your
reaction: 'In a huge surprise, welterweight champion beats middleweight
champion by split decision. Robinson unexpectedly fights flat footed,
guaranteeing plenty of action. Basilio, spotting Sugar Ray 6 1/2 lbs., relies
on his unparalleled conditioning and steel chin. The punches fly for all 15
rounds, with both fighters absolutely certain they deserve the verdict."

CB: "He thought he won, but I chased him all night long. I was the aggressor,
he could think what he wanted to at the time, but he knew I won that fight. He
would never admit that he lost, naturally."


DI: "Now in the rematch in Chicago in '58, you said that you got 'stupid' that
night and that Ray kept throwing the right uppercut and about the fifth time
he hit you in the eyebrow your eye closed completely in about the sixth round.
I've seen the pictures of you after that bout, and I'm amazed you could have
went the rest of the distance with your eye like that. It's one of the worst
eye injuries I've ever seen. Yet you lost a very close split decision with the
referee scoring for you and the two judges giving Ray the nod. You stated that
after the bout you walked to your dressing room but they had to carry Ray to
his. Do you feel you won that bout?"

CB: "I thought I coulda won it, you know, but it was close. But I think that
because my left eye was closed, it upset my timing and judgement of distance
and that ugly eye swung the judges a bit. But I thought I won the fight and he
knew it too. You know why? Because he would never fight me again."

DI: "Why?"

CB: "Because he was afraid of me, that's why."

DI: "He needed the money, he should have made the third bout."

CB: "He was stupid he thought....you see this guy never liked to be introduced
as champion of the world. 'Ray Robinson, middleweight king’, he wanted to be a
king see and.."

At this point Ed Brophy interjects and reminds Carmen that he has to sign
about fifty more items yet for the Hall and that we had better wrap it up
(Carmen being a true Italian, has trouble talking without the use of his
hands).

DI: "You feel ok after the surgery? You look great."

CB: "Oh yeah, I'm feeling great. I had a great surgeon, great care at the
hospital, and
people were just fantastic to me."

DI: "Do you still watch the fights?"

CB: "Oh yeah."

DI: "Who do you like to watch?"

CB: "Gatti. He's an impressive kid. He's aggressive. I like his style, it's
similar to mine."

DI: "You saw the Tyson fight where he bit Evander in the ear. What would've
happened had that taken place in your heyday in the 50's? Would it have been
such a big deal?"

CB: "Sure, why not? You can't bite a guy. He surprised me, I was disappointed
in him. I was really pulling for him.."

My partner in crime, Joe "Canastota" asks Carmen if anyone ever bit him while
he was active.

CB: "I had a guy bite my ear. He bit my ear, he bit my shoulder and I kicked
the shit outta him. But I don't know what he (Tyson) was thinking. I really
thought he was gonna win that fight if he fought a legitimate fight. I don't
know what he had in his mind to bite the guy, but he intended to because he
took his mouthpiece out to bite him good 'cause it would be kinda tough to
bite him all the way through with the mouthpiece in. I still haven't figured
out why or what he was thinking to do something like that. Maybe he didn't
have confidence that he could win the fight legitimately. I thought he
could....it didn't happen that way."